Comments on: IUC Exclusive: Phoenix Not Attracted to Women, according to Toronto Stripper http://ianundercover.com/2009/02/19/iuc-exclusive-phoenix-not-attracted-to-women-according-to-toronto-stripper/ Pop Culture News and Views by Journalist Ian Halperin Thu, 09 Sep 2010 07:03:10 -0500 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.8.4 hourly 1 By: Tigerlilly http://ianundercover.com/2009/02/19/iuc-exclusive-phoenix-not-attracted-to-women-according-to-toronto-stripper/comment-page-1/#comment-3230 Tigerlilly Sun, 22 Feb 2009 03:19:54 +0000 http://ianundercover.com/?p=2398#comment-3230 Don't get me wrong, Keane and Ian, I RESPECTFULLY disagree with forcing public figures out of the closet. I do not necessarily think what you believe is evil or nefarious (sometimes I wonder, but I don't firmly believe). I just want to go on record that there are those of us who believe a person's sexuality should be private and it should be their choice if it's made public. I'm talking ONLY of that. If some 45 year old whore is claiming to be 36, that's different. Their family likely KNOW they are 45. I just think it's wrong to force peeps out of the closet, ESPECIALLY if they've only had an ALLEDGED dalliance with the same sex. Peeps get drunk enough to do some REAL fucked up shit. Do you think fondling someone of the same sex really compares and do you think that one encounter can sum up someone's sexuality? I don't. I'll give you an example that I find interesting from regular peeps, not celebs. I have a friend whose brother is gay, very, very gay. Well during gay pride day, he and a lesbian friend of his took a lot of ecstacy and ended up having sex. Neither considered themselves bisexual and still don't. So, by Ian's definition, they are STRAIGHT, simply because they had straight sex. And again, I RESPECTFULLY disagree with you about the role models. When you are less than 10% of the population, and you have them out there and proud, don't look a gift horse in the mouth. I don't mean that to sound nasty, but I think you are doing a disservice to the out and famous gay population. That's just my opinion, and again, I mean no disrespect. And I also don't agree in any way, shape or form with the "if you are not gay, then you can't speak on this issue". I'm not gay, but I believe in gay rights. It makes me madder than a hatter that gays do not have the same rights as straight people, BUT I don't believe just because you are gay and want everyone to come out of the closet, this ideal trumps the privacy rights of closeted gays. I just don't believe anyone has that right, gay or straight. Now it's one thing if FAMOUS people put it out there, and Phoenix is kinda doing that by putting himself in the limelight unlike many stars such as Daniel Day Lewis, Phillip Seymour Hoffman, etc. We don't know much about them because they don't want us to know, and I think they have that right, gay or straight. Again, I want to emphasize that I agree to disagree with your position, but just wanted to air the opposing one in a (hopefully) respectful manner... Don’t get me wrong, Keane and Ian, I RESPECTFULLY disagree with forcing public figures out of the closet. I do not necessarily think what you believe is evil or nefarious (sometimes I wonder, but I don’t firmly believe). I just want to go on record that there are those of us who believe a person’s sexuality should be private and it should be their choice if it’s made public. I’m talking ONLY of that. If some 45 year old whore is claiming to be 36, that’s different. Their family likely KNOW they are 45. I just think it’s wrong to force peeps out of the closet, ESPECIALLY if they’ve only had an ALLEDGED dalliance with the same sex. Peeps get drunk enough to do some REAL fucked up shit. Do you think fondling someone of the same sex really compares and do you think that one encounter can sum up someone’s sexuality? I don’t.
I’ll give you an example that I find interesting from regular peeps, not celebs. I have a friend whose brother is gay, very, very gay. Well during gay pride day, he and a lesbian friend of his took a lot of ecstacy and ended up having sex. Neither considered themselves bisexual and still don’t. So, by Ian’s definition, they are STRAIGHT, simply because they had straight sex.
And again, I RESPECTFULLY disagree with you about the role models. When you are less than 10% of the population, and you have them out there and proud, don’t look a gift horse in the mouth. I don’t mean that to sound nasty, but I think you are doing a disservice to the out and famous gay population. That’s just my opinion, and again, I mean no disrespect. And I also don’t agree in any way, shape or form with the “if you are not gay, then you can’t speak on this issue”. I’m not gay, but I believe in gay rights. It makes me madder than a hatter that gays do not have the same rights as straight people, BUT I don’t believe just because you are gay and want everyone to come out of the closet, this ideal trumps the privacy rights of closeted gays. I just don’t believe anyone has that right, gay or straight.
Now it’s one thing if FAMOUS people put it out there, and Phoenix is kinda doing that by putting himself in the limelight unlike many stars such as Daniel Day Lewis, Phillip Seymour Hoffman, etc. We don’t know much about them because they don’t want us to know, and I think they have that right, gay or straight.
Again, I want to emphasize that I agree to disagree with your position, but just wanted to air the opposing one in a (hopefully) respectful manner…

]]> By: Keane http://ianundercover.com/2009/02/19/iuc-exclusive-phoenix-not-attracted-to-women-according-to-toronto-stripper/comment-page-1/#comment-3178 Keane Sat, 21 Feb 2009 15:33:03 +0000 http://ianundercover.com/?p=2398#comment-3178 Tigerlilly and Ludivine - I 100% disagree with what you're saying and 100% stay behind what I say. This is something I have thought about a long time before coming to this site and is one of the reasons I find what this site has to say so interesting. Having worked in the tv industry for some time myself I know things about celebrities that the general public don't know and have to say I was shocked at the level of deception practised by all celebs big and small. That mainstream tv presenter who goes by the age of 37 but hasn't seen that age for a good 8 years and only achieves it by the major facelift and botox she had before hitting the big time. That 60's singing star turned national treasure tv presenter in her 60s now who is a total cokehead. That family man celebrity chef who sells his businesses on the basis of his family image and regularly talks about what a great relationship he has with his wife who shags men and women left, right and centre. Its one thing to simply say you don't wish to discuss your personal life and your private life is something you want to keep just that, and actively selling an entirely false, duplicitous image of yourself to benefit your own career and sell your products to the masses. That is deception and fraud and it makes me sick. If I were to work in front of camera and were asked about my personal life I would adopt one of two strategies: 1) I would say I didn't wish to talk about it at all or 2) I would be honest. I categorically would not invent a false relationship or get my PR to create false stories about myself to cover up the truth or to help market me. That is selling the world a fraudulent image of yourself and I would not do it. What you don't seem to understand is that these people are making a lot of money out of presenting this false image of themselves, its not just about a right to privacy. And as far as having gay role models out there well I think that is something you can only comment on if you're gay yourself. As a feminine gay female whose life is in no way different to that of a heterosexual woman except for the fact of who I sleep with I can categorically say I cannot think of one celebrity role model out there who I identify with, not a single one. Lesbian girls like me do exist in the celeb world but they are closeted so that is no good to me. I don't wish to disparage your opinions and say you do not have a right to a point of view but I have to say that this is one argument that it is difficult for anyone to make successfully if they haev not been in that poition themselves. What may seem like a good lesbian role model to you may not actually be for someone who is in fact gay. Plus the reality of the world is very different to that presented in the media/entertainment industry. It makes us think that the majorty of the world is heterosexual and there are just one or two gay or bisexual people out there. The reality is from all the people I have met in my life that a large proportion of people are gay or bisexual - at least half of my acquaintance and it is just as common to be other than straight than it is to be straight. This is not represented by the entertainment industry at all. But I must point out that my interest in this site is not just a poltical one, it is also a light-hearted, fun, idle diversion like all gossip sites are. So if that's not your thing that's fair enough and you should certainly look for entertainment elsewhere. Best wishes x Tigerlilly and Ludivine – I 100% disagree with what you’re saying and 100% stay behind what I say. This is something I have thought about a long time before coming to this site and is one of the reasons I find what this site has to say so interesting. Having worked in the tv industry for some time myself I know things about celebrities that the general public don’t know and have to say I was shocked at the level of deception practised by all celebs big and small. That mainstream tv presenter who goes by the age of 37 but hasn’t seen that age for a good 8 years and only achieves it by the major facelift and botox she had before hitting the big time. That 60’s singing star turned national treasure tv presenter in her 60s now who is a total cokehead. That family man celebrity chef who sells his businesses on the basis of his family image and regularly talks about what a great relationship he has with his wife who shags men and women left, right and centre. Its one thing to simply say you don’t wish to discuss your personal life and your private life is something you want to keep just that, and actively selling an entirely false, duplicitous image of yourself to benefit your own career and sell your products to the masses. That is deception and fraud and it makes me sick. If I were to work in front of camera and were asked about my personal life I would adopt one of two strategies: 1) I would say I didn’t wish to talk about it at all or 2) I would be honest. I categorically would not invent a false relationship or get my PR to create false stories about myself to cover up the truth or to help market me. That is selling the world a fraudulent image of yourself and I would not do it. What you don’t seem to understand is that these people are making a lot of money out of presenting this false image of themselves, its not just about a right to privacy. And as far as having gay role models out there well I think that is something you can only comment on if you’re gay yourself. As a feminine gay female whose life is in no way different to that of a heterosexual woman except for the fact of who I sleep with I can categorically say I cannot think of one celebrity role model out there who I identify with, not a single one. Lesbian girls like me do exist in the celeb world but they are closeted so that is no good to me. I don’t wish to disparage your opinions and say you do not have a right to a point of view but I have to say that this is one argument that it is difficult for anyone to make successfully if they haev not been in that poition themselves. What may seem like a good lesbian role model to you may not actually be for someone who is in fact gay. Plus the reality of the world is very different to that presented in the media/entertainment industry. It makes us think that the majorty of the world is heterosexual and there are just one or two gay or bisexual people out there. The reality is from all the people I have met in my life that a large proportion of people are gay or bisexual – at least half of my acquaintance and it is just as common to be other than straight than it is to be straight. This is not represented by the entertainment industry at all. But I must point out that my interest in this site is not just a poltical one, it is also a light-hearted, fun, idle diversion like all gossip sites are. So if that’s not your thing that’s fair enough and you should certainly look for entertainment elsewhere. Best wishes x

]]> By: Ludivine http://ianundercover.com/2009/02/19/iuc-exclusive-phoenix-not-attracted-to-women-according-to-toronto-stripper/comment-page-1/#comment-3172 Ludivine Sat, 21 Feb 2009 10:54:47 +0000 http://ianundercover.com/?p=2398#comment-3172 <a href="#comment-3155" rel="nofollow">@Tigerlilly:</a> This is exactly the way I feel. Human respect is the number one need. <a href="#comment-3144" rel="nofollow">@Keane:</a> About the hundreds of alleged closet cases in the entertainment industry: the problem is that there are many rumors, and more often than not they are just that, unsubstantiated rumors (see Keanu, for example). Since someone denies being gay and you have no reliable proof that they are lying, better be careful and avoid peddling the anonymous gossip that has been lingering on the internet for years, everyone adding their own personal fantasy to it (this is the way rumors run wild). You've got your reasons for relishing that sort of speculation and I've got mine for not liking it. I'm a very empathetic person and I just put myself in the victim's place. I suggest you try it too (shouldn't be very difficult for you, as Tigerlilly points out). Thank you for welcoming me so nicely, but if you don't mind I think I'm going to get back to genuine GLBT activists' sites. @Tigerlilly:

This is exactly the way I feel. Human respect is the number one need.

@Keane:

About the hundreds of alleged closet cases in the entertainment industry: the problem is that there are many rumors, and more often than not they are just that, unsubstantiated rumors (see Keanu, for example). Since someone denies being gay and you have no reliable proof that they are lying, better be careful and avoid peddling the anonymous gossip that has been lingering on the internet for years, everyone adding their own personal fantasy to it (this is the way rumors run wild). You’ve got your reasons for relishing that sort of speculation and I’ve got mine for not liking it. I’m a very empathetic person and I just put myself in the victim’s place. I suggest you try it too (shouldn’t be very difficult for you, as Tigerlilly points out). Thank you for welcoming me so nicely, but if you don’t mind I think I’m going to get back to genuine GLBT activists’ sites.

]]> By: Tigerlilly http://ianundercover.com/2009/02/19/iuc-exclusive-phoenix-not-attracted-to-women-according-to-toronto-stripper/comment-page-1/#comment-3155 Tigerlilly Sat, 21 Feb 2009 02:07:56 +0000 http://ianundercover.com/?p=2398#comment-3155 No offense Keane, but people who are ignorant enough to believe that all gay mean are limp wristed screamin' queens and all gay women are flannel wearing tool lovin' bulls would NOT change their minds about homosexuality if they found out the stars they admired were gay. Rather, they would change their minds about the stars themselves. THAT is why those who choose to remain in the closet do. Sad but true. Don't mistake what should be for what is. While I love gossip, I do believe strongly in a person's right to privacy. Celebrities and public figures give up a lot of those rights, BUT when it comes to their sexuality, I really believe that should be a choice wheter they choose to be out and proud, closeted or somewhere in between (e.g., Jodie Foster, Anderson Cooper). Yeah, I WANT to know, but is it any of my freakin' beeswax? No. I do think it's important for young gay peeps to have roll models to look up to, and it would be very nice to have more, but they DO have them, many of them! So, I don't agree with outing people before they are ready (if ever) to out themselves to the public. I think how, when and why a person comes out should be up to the individual. You yourself are not 100% out either, so I think you should understand those of us who do not agree with forcing peeps out of the closet....And for the record, no I'm not gay, but I see this as not just a 'gay issue' but a right to privacy issue. No offense Keane, but people who are ignorant enough to believe that all gay mean are limp wristed screamin’ queens and all gay women are flannel wearing tool lovin’ bulls would NOT change their minds about homosexuality if they found out the stars they admired were gay. Rather, they would change their minds about the stars themselves. THAT is why those who choose to remain in the closet do. Sad but true. Don’t mistake what should be for what is.
While I love gossip, I do believe strongly in a person’s right to privacy. Celebrities and public figures give up a lot of those rights, BUT when it comes to their sexuality, I really believe that should be a choice wheter they choose to be out and proud, closeted or somewhere in between (e.g., Jodie Foster, Anderson Cooper). Yeah, I WANT to know, but is it any of my freakin’ beeswax? No.
I do think it’s important for young gay peeps to have roll models to look up to, and it would be very nice to have more, but they DO have them, many of them! So, I don’t agree with outing people before they are ready (if ever) to out themselves to the public. I think how, when and why a person comes out should be up to the individual. You yourself are not 100% out either, so I think you should understand those of us who do not agree with forcing peeps out of the closet….And for the record, no I’m not gay, but I see this as not just a ‘gay issue’ but a right to privacy issue.

]]> By: Keane http://ianundercover.com/2009/02/19/iuc-exclusive-phoenix-not-attracted-to-women-according-to-toronto-stripper/comment-page-1/#comment-3144 Keane Fri, 20 Feb 2009 23:20:33 +0000 http://ianundercover.com/?p=2398#comment-3144 @ Ludivine I respectfully disagree with you there. I strongly believe that the hundreds of gay closeted stars, both in the entertainment industry, politics and sport, who pretend to be straight in public and even go to the extent of creating fake heterosexual relationships and even marriages and families, set the gay rights movement back hundreds of years. Gay people are still considered as a minorty and a marginal group in society whereas the reality is we're everywhere! We're in sports, we're in the White House and we're all over the entertainment industry like a rash. If the heterosexual population of the world knew that all these great people they'd idolised for years were gay then it would do great things for tolerance and acceptance of gay people in society. Plus these people have the power and the influence to do great things for gay rights, coming out strongly against prop 8 for example and strongly defending a gay person's rght to the same choices as that of a straight person. Plus I think it is disgusting that in this day and age so many people still feel they have to deny being gay like there is something bad or wrong about it! Being gay or being anything, bisexual, transexual, transvestite, whatever, is something to be proud about and something to be celebrated, not for us all to be ashamed of! And yet still no-one (or very few people) in the public eye can just simply say they're gay like it is no big deal, it is always something tortured and something that is seen as terrible rather than a normal, postiive thing. Still for most people I would say coming out is a torturous experience, it certainly was for me and I'm not even out to everyone I know (lots of homophobic people in my life I can tell you). Children need to be brought up to believe that some people grow up to be straight, some people grow up to be gay and some people grow up to be somewhere in between. How much easier life would then be for people like me and lots of my in and out of the closet friends. Famous people can make a huge difference in terms of changing the perception of what people think of as gay i.e. gay men are not all camp queens wearing fetish clothing and hooking up with strangers on Hampstead Heath and gay women do not all have short haircuts and wear dungarees, we look exactly the same as straight women! But yes you're right, this site is not all about politics, its also about fun and having a laugh and ust idle chit chat. You seem like a cool person so I hope you change your mind and come back and hang with us sometime. Take care x @ Ludivine

I respectfully disagree with you there. I strongly believe that the hundreds of gay closeted stars, both in the entertainment industry, politics and sport, who pretend to be straight in public and even go to the extent of creating fake heterosexual relationships and even marriages and families, set the gay rights movement back hundreds of years. Gay people are still considered as a minorty and a marginal group in society whereas the reality is we’re everywhere! We’re in sports, we’re in the White House and we’re all over the entertainment industry like a rash. If the heterosexual population of the world knew that all these great people they’d idolised for years were gay then it would do great things for tolerance and acceptance of gay people in society. Plus these people have the power and the influence to do great things for gay rights, coming out strongly against prop 8 for example and strongly defending a gay person’s rght to the same choices as that of a straight person. Plus I think it is disgusting that in this day and age so many people still feel they have to deny being gay like there is something bad or wrong about it! Being gay or being anything, bisexual, transexual, transvestite, whatever, is something to be proud about and something to be celebrated, not for us all to be ashamed of! And yet still no-one (or very few people) in the public eye can just simply say they’re gay like it is no big deal, it is always something tortured and something that is seen as terrible rather than a normal, postiive thing. Still for most people I would say coming out is a torturous experience, it certainly was for me and I’m not even out to everyone I know (lots of homophobic people in my life I can tell you). Children need to be brought up to believe that some people grow up to be straight, some people grow up to be gay and some people grow up to be somewhere in between. How much easier life would then be for people like me and lots of my in and out of the closet friends. Famous people can make a huge difference in terms of changing the perception of what people think of as gay i.e. gay men are not all camp queens wearing fetish clothing and hooking up with strangers on Hampstead Heath and gay women do not all have short haircuts and wear dungarees, we look exactly the same as straight women! But yes you’re right, this site is not all about politics, its also about fun and having a laugh and ust idle chit chat. You seem like a cool person so I hope you change your mind and come back and hang with us sometime. Take care x

]]> By: Ludivine http://ianundercover.com/2009/02/19/iuc-exclusive-phoenix-not-attracted-to-women-according-to-toronto-stripper/comment-page-1/#comment-3138 Ludivine Fri, 20 Feb 2009 22:06:03 +0000 http://ianundercover.com/?p=2398#comment-3138 <a href="#comment-3127" rel="nofollow">@Keane:</a> Keane, thank you for your answer. As a matter of fact I'm a M to F transsexual, and I agree with everything you say, only I'm a bit confused that you choose this particular place to speak your mind. I don't think gay gossip can help the cause of sexual tolerance in any way, shape or form. Sorry. Good night and good luck. @Keane:

Keane, thank you for your answer. As a matter of fact I’m a M to F transsexual, and I agree with everything you say, only I’m a bit confused that you choose this particular place to speak your mind. I don’t think gay gossip can help the cause of sexual tolerance in any way, shape or form. Sorry. Good night and good luck.

]]> By: Keane http://ianundercover.com/2009/02/19/iuc-exclusive-phoenix-not-attracted-to-women-according-to-toronto-stripper/comment-page-1/#comment-3134 Keane Fri, 20 Feb 2009 18:55:23 +0000 http://ianundercover.com/?p=2398#comment-3134 Ian - I think you'll find that Karen is one leper that even Jesus would have turned his nose up at! Ian – I think you’ll find that Karen is one leper that even Jesus would have turned his nose up at!

]]> By: Tony http://ianundercover.com/2009/02/19/iuc-exclusive-phoenix-not-attracted-to-women-according-to-toronto-stripper/comment-page-1/#comment-3128 Tony Fri, 20 Feb 2009 16:24:09 +0000 http://ianundercover.com/?p=2398#comment-3128 Bravo Keane! Bravo Keane!

]]> By: Keane http://ianundercover.com/2009/02/19/iuc-exclusive-phoenix-not-attracted-to-women-according-to-toronto-stripper/comment-page-1/#comment-3127 Keane Fri, 20 Feb 2009 15:46:23 +0000 http://ianundercover.com/?p=2398#comment-3127 Ludivine - are you gay sweetheart? Because if you're not don't go speaking for a whole community that you know nothing of. And BTW all gays do not think alike anyway, we're not a homogenous, undifferentiated group. We all have our own opinions and what one gay person may think may be entirely different to what my personal view is. I personally want our society to be rid of the one remaining and seemingly acceptable prejuice which is homophobia (in the UK it is acceptable for a hotel owner to refuse to allow a gay couple to stay in their establishment if they say they are "morally opposed to homosexuality", can you imagine the outcry if someone didn't let a person stay in their hotel is because they are black or Jewish?). The only way for us to live in a free and unprejudiced society is for people to admit who they are so that the heterosexual population of the world understands that there are numerous gay people in all sectors of life and not just the small handful they know about it. People need to understand that it is as normal to be gay as it is to be straight and until so many people in the public eye stop pretending to be something they're not this won' be achieved. Don't make pronouncements about a politics of sexuality that doesn't necessarily impact on your own life and that you don't fully understand. All gay people have a right to a political voice and there is no such thing as "true gay rights activists" and false ones, just different opinions and approaches. I'm sure all gay people would argue that we can only have a just and fair society when all people are brave enough and have enough integrity to be honest about who they are. Ludivine – are you gay sweetheart? Because if you’re not don’t go speaking for a whole community that you know nothing of. And BTW all gays do not think alike anyway, we’re not a homogenous, undifferentiated group. We all have our own opinions and what one gay person may think may be entirely different to what my personal view is. I personally want our society to be rid of the one remaining and seemingly acceptable prejuice which is homophobia (in the UK it is acceptable for a hotel owner to refuse to allow a gay couple to stay in their establishment if they say they are “morally opposed to homosexuality”, can you imagine the outcry if someone didn’t let a person stay in their hotel is because they are black or Jewish?). The only way for us to live in a free and unprejudiced society is for people to admit who they are so that the heterosexual population of the world understands that there are numerous gay people in all sectors of life and not just the small handful they know about it. People need to understand that it is as normal to be gay as it is to be straight and until so many people in the public eye stop pretending to be something they’re not this won’ be achieved. Don’t make pronouncements about a politics of sexuality that doesn’t necessarily impact on your own life and that you don’t fully understand. All gay people have a right to a political voice and there is no such thing as “true gay rights activists” and false ones, just different opinions and approaches. I’m sure all gay people would argue that we can only have a just and fair society when all people are brave enough and have enough integrity to be honest about who they are.

]]> By: Ludivine http://ianundercover.com/2009/02/19/iuc-exclusive-phoenix-not-attracted-to-women-according-to-toronto-stripper/comment-page-1/#comment-3126 Ludivine Fri, 20 Feb 2009 15:04:29 +0000 http://ianundercover.com/?p=2398#comment-3126 <a href="#comment-3125" rel="nofollow">@Tony:</a> Harmful to the whole society, and especially to the gays themselves. In terms of image, they are the first victims of this obnoxious persecution, but a big paradox is that some of them participate in it or encourage it stupidly. The true gay rights activists (Margaret Cho, for one) are very aware of this problem. @Tony:

Harmful to the whole society, and especially to the gays themselves. In terms of image, they are the first victims of this obnoxious persecution, but a big paradox is that some of them participate in it or encourage it stupidly. The true gay rights activists (Margaret Cho, for one) are very aware of this problem.

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